Its very sunny in London today and Ive listened too all eleven hours of this interview. What historical issues does he think are most worthy of exploration, and how would he suggest young aspiring researchers go about gathering and parsing primary and secondary sources? Over the years you just reason, that a faith shouldnt be that complicated. He was going to have him thrown out of the church. If Krakauer can interview Dan Lafferty, it might be possible. [9][4], After being fired from his job in security for the LDS Church for his writings, Metcalfe worked first for Steve Christensen and later for Mark Hofmann. hope my comment wasnt insensitive! From Spencer Kimballs battle with dementia to Monsons where the hell is that driver, to the insights with Mark E Peterson, Brents influential instructors at the University of Utah. As a personal friend and research assistant for both Steve Christensen and Mark Hofmann, Brent Metcalfe watched the whole episode unfold right before his eyes. If so, what will be the subject? But this podcast is filled with way more than you will get in the book or documentary. He also discusses the events leading up to, and including, his excommunication. Thanks for the clarification, Brent. Certainly the reality, was different than the accepted narrative. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. I was in a mission conference in Bolivia when Steves younger brother was called out and told of the murder. 2) It seems to me that most of the critiques in the 21st century arent recent developments, rather they already existed for sometimes decades (credit to Brodie and the Tanners for that). Ive always felt like crises of faith didnt quite describe my journey but Brent gave me the phrase that perfectly describes my experience. All rights reserved. Two more parts (3 & 4) to come. Thanks for the great podcast. My good friend Matt Christensen digitized the 7th East Press and was kind enough to allow Signature Books to make it available on their incredible digital library. Im curious who is singing Lead Kindly Light in this its beautiful. So, based on Krakauers shared experience, it sounds like the answer is no, Hofmann doesnt do interviews. had the same reaction to the Sandra Tanners interview. :). I just discovered this on my own I bought every single issue of the 7th East Press, and was so disappointed that I missed picking up the final April Fools issue which appeared around campus after the edict banning it from being sold on campus. Again, Im not sure that you would disagree with any of this. In episode #276 of The Jimmy Rex Show, we sit down with a key role in Netflix Documentary Murder Among The Mormons, Brent Metcalfe.Visit and Listen to more. He is their emotional support and Sue's constant companion, her voice, advocate and her angel. Roger that. Looking forward to the interview! Its great to find all this background information. Without good research, ours is a heritage shallow in meaning. How did you encourage this masterpiece which, in my opinion, decimates the churchs past claims on the BofA? Brent provided a detailed account of the Mark Hoffman story with a perspective that we seldom hear. Carl, in parts 3 & 4 of the interview, Ill discuss the BoAbr and some of the challenges that believing scholars face in analyzing its ideational and textual origins. $95k AVERAGE INCOME Our wealth data indicates income average is $95k. The look of Jesus on me removed the burden of my sins, while he spoke these words, Be faithful until death and this shall be thy place of rest. I never had seen Jesus Christ before, nor heard his voice, nor ever had a sense of his intercession at the right hand of God for me till now (Billy Hibbard, _Memoirs of the Life and Travels of B. Hibbard, Minister of the Gospel_ [New York: J. C. Totten, 1825], 23). Indeed, the trivial matters that many theists assert as claiming the attention of God (even as hell is meanwhilebreaking loose) is absurd evidently too absurd for many to even grasp. They even go so far as to claim that Zarahemla was directly across the river from Nauvoo, and that the waters of mormon are Big Springs, MO. Yes! I think that the group is called FIRM, lead by Rod Meldrum, Jake Hilton, and Wayne May. They have proven time and time again that that is all they care about. But such intellectual issues didnt play a role in my failure of faith. I havent listened to MS for several years now, but with Brent being interviewed I couldnt miss this, and I wasnt disappointed. Jn During the first part of his interview, usually John will ask a question about gaining a testimony while in the Mormon church or have spiritual experiences and then pairing those experiences with the Mormon narrative. Or if you have any thoughts on this John? Who does he think the last bomb was meant for? I would love to hear more about what unfolded after Hoffman, including how you came to be excommunicated, if you care to share that. Your account of why you didnt pursue a doctorate was extremely touching to me as I absolutely admire those that can do the tedium of historical research. The Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. Ultimately, Id say (and I dont know that youd fundamentally disagree here) that its impossible to separate traditions like Catholicism or Mormonism from their fundamental and unique truth claims. On Wiwikipedia, it mentions that in a hit piece done by Dan Peterson, that he encodeds the message, Metcalfe is a butthead. What were your qurarrels like with FARMS? I am still cringing from the realizations about the lack of discernment and the deliberate efforts on the part of the GAs. What is your spirtuality/worldview like post-Mormonism? Looking around me, every object was changed, and a bright glory appeared on everything. I especially connected with his comments on ADD. "BoMor" is a contraction preferred by Brent Metcalfe, who edited the book in which this paper appeared, and who likewise does not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon -- Metcalfe was exxed I think sometime after the infamous September Six. Metcalfe subsequently resigned from the Seventh East Press and told Sunstone that he would no longer write for them. :( Will re-record hopefully soon! John Dehlin Faces Excommunication. How would it be different from other books that deal with the same subject? Rude Dog Never fear! Learn how your comment data is processed. I wish we could let go of the idea that a person can only be an expert in a particular field if they have a college degree saying they are. Thanks so much for posting this. Do as I say and not as I do. This was something I surmised most of my adult life. Isnt that a dangerous and at least weak and anything goes approach, especially for fanatical groups? This is the part Im most interested in: how would he suggest young aspiring researchers go about gathering and parsing primary and secondary sources?. But those were interesting times! [1], In the early 1980s, Metcalfe contributed to the Seventh East Press and Sunstone, while at the same time worked as a security guard at the Church Office Building of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). accounting for llc member buyout; black barber shops chicago; otto ohlendorf descendants; 97 4runner brake bleeding; Freundschaft aufhoren: zu welchem Zeitpunkt sera Semantik Starke & genau so wie parece fair ist und bleibt 7 czerwca 2022. Im glad you found some of my remarks useful and thanks for the kind comments. Oh. It seems there is some serious self deception that is required to work around these problems that are creating riffs in families, as well as individual conflicts of spiritual dissonance for good members and leaders of the church. The message was discovered after his review had gone to press and had to be edited out. 497: Brent Metcalfe Part 3 -- After the Hofmann bombings and his excommunication (Podcast Episode 2014) on IMDb: Movies, TV, Celebs, and more. Surely, anyone who was even moderately sure of themselves in this case would have responded such as this : We have no idea where this letter came from, theres absolutely no truth in it and we disregard it completely.we maintain Josephs account to be true So glad Brent. A man with boldness of speech, and is often cited by members as one of the favourite apostles to hear from. This was an excellent broadcast! They claim that it occurred here in the USA siting scriptures and other things Joseph smith said. Excellent question. So my question is, what if the effort for the book of Abraham was an attempt by JS and his close friends to deliver an esoteric masterpiece. Today the church has suffered too many blows to its claims of certainty to dare to treat its members the way it treated Brent Metcalfe. This was very similar to my experience. Helping us understand all the ins and outs of this tale throughout the three episodes of this series is Brent Metcalfe, so lets find out more about him, shall we? I believe Brent said he has the copy in his records.**. The 7th East Press was a gem. SALT LAKE CITY Egyptologist Ed Ashment sympathizes with Washington anthropologist for now has escaped excommunication from the LDS Church. Thanks again Brent, no wonder you have had the experience you have shared with your faith about God. Thank you John and Brent. It seems to me that going with what you may think everyone around knows is right (even if it isnt) more easily allows for these kinds of experiences more than realizing there are differences of opinion and thought and then vying for spiritual confirmation. It seems like in the aftermath of the bombings, combined with his zeal to argue the history of Mormonism, Brent Metcalfe was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know about the September 6 and there are others. To those people like me, however, who find themselves on the butt end of his speeches, may consider him to come across as aggressive, brash and unsympathetic. o David Wright was excommunicated for apostasy in April 1994 for his nontraditional views on Mormon scripture as exhibited in essays like his chapter in New Approaches to the Book of Mormon. And how many. Gary at the time was an up-and-coming star because of his writing skills. So yes, Brent, please comment on this phenomenon. Azerbaijan's Jabrayil Hasanov in action against The USA's Brent Metcalf. So, considering all that they had been through, when Mark was named a suspect, Brent didnt even think twice before defending his friend on television. He told the story of writing at least a few letters to Hofmann in prison asking for an interview. Im definitely a fan. Thank you Brandt for sharing your experiences. Just curious if there is a link that has information about what they discovered and why they were ex'd or disparaged. My epiphany also came suddenly, while driving, followed by a massive emotional experience. Why didnt the Lord reveal to the prophet that the documents were forged? This is definitely a not-miss interview. When Brent Metcalfe compiled a book of essays last year suggesting that Mormonism's founding scripture wasn't the ancient history it purports to be, he expected some criticism. The Book of Abraham was a problem on my mission too, but we had to just ignore that issue, and wait for an answer. As for the photocopy of Wilford Poulsons parallel, yes, I still have it in one of hundreds of boxes in a storage unit while my house is being remodeled. She spoke of her life and what has happened in the 30 years since one of Utah's most infamous crimes, Thursday October 8, 2015. Movies. We hope to rerecord sometime next week. John, you asked for information about any of the Christensens. (The audio starts in Part 1 around 1:23.55) I did a little research and found a digitized & searchable copy of Elias Smiths autobiography. https://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=24440. Pardon me for not commenting on LDS church history, but to be honest Ive read it or heard it all and have moved on. Brent Metcalfe is definitely one of my favorite interviewees ever on Mormon Stories Podcast. :). Also, make sure your second recording matches the first. Jerald articulated his concerns in one of his ministrys publications. But Ashment, a fellow member of the church, said he was disgusted with those who publicly protested the church action at a rally for Murphy on Salt Lake City's Main Street plaza Sunday night. In Part 6, we talk to Brent about his interactions and run-ins with prominent Mormon apologists like Daniel Peterson, Lou Midgley and others. God-belief has also been attributed partly to our brains evolved hyper-tendency to perceiveagency where none exists. Please, God, let this podcast inspire someone to produce a talk show called, Hot-tubbing with Mark Hoffman! He has already saved her from choking on several occasions. In secret, behind closed doors, who were they really betting on? Brenten "Brent" Metcalfe joined NW3C after working in law enforcement for over 13 years. Robert Ritner, Egyptologist, wrote a recent book the Joseph Smith Papyri in which he acknowledges your encouragement for that project. Thank You for contributing your experiences with us all I am curious this morning about the possibility of any reports during the time JS says he had his First Vision, that were published in local newspapers, town Crier printings? Thanks again Brent for sharing a sketch of your life with us. Brent, thank you so much for doing this interview! The LDS Church fired Brigham Young University professor David Wright for his contribution to the volume, and excommunicated both Wright and Metcalfe shortly thereafter. I am quite sure, that film is no longer shown. Part 1 of the interview stuck much closer to home for me. It was stillbecause it all drove from the incredibility of the whole thing. @BHMetcalf. My life has been enriched by theinquiries those books catalyzed. Lance is a Gnostic priest and has written and spoken extensively on the Gnostic and esoteric flavor of Joseph Smiths writings. In other words, if it is an intrinsic aspect of a tradition to make historical claims or assertions about the underlying nature of the world, the falsification of those claims essentially undermines the character of that tradition. Ive struggled to understand the human mind in this regard. Yes! Thats what I expected from church leaders.I meanSalamander spirit !! Serious insight and analysis of the religion Im trying to fit into my new, authentic life. A member of the LDS Church reports he was excommunicated for apostasy on February 2nd, 2013. brent metcalfe excommunicated. Yeah for Signature Books, Matt Christensen, and the internet!!!!! About a year or so ago when I finally left the church I looked him up to get advice and catch up on old times. I cant wait to listen to the second half! Thats something each person must decide for themselves, but Ive made peace with my own interpretation.. I also appreciate your parting words. New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology, https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865608559/BYU-professor-speaks-on-unnoticed-assumptions-about-the-Book-of-Abraham.html. The triplet Egyptian Alphabet manuscripts and the bound Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language also elaborate the Katumin narrative. sorry, the book is called The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri, Not a question but I would very much like to hear Brents response to Kerry Muhlesteins recent FAIRMormon Conference presentation on the Book of Abraham. It all depends on the depth of study one does. It is his sixth season overall with the Cyclones after serving as the volunteer assistant for the 2017-18 season. And it leaves this distrust in LDS leaders hanging with the viewer. I shared this source with Mike Quinn when he was writing _Early Mormonism and the Magic World View_. In the highly anticipated follow up to our first interview, Brent Metcalfe continues his story. And I went through a very long phase of just wishing that I had never been born. I just finished listening to part one and I loved it! Released: Sep 13, 2014 Format: Podcast episode They buried the Mclellin diaries also.similar thingdidnt like the content. Wow John, what an interview. I also wanted to tell you how disturbed I became to my very core about the way you were treated during your working for the church Then the description of the events of day of the bombings, where the meeting was still set with the GA! Yes, because remember that the paradigm speaking through Mikes words is not just representative of him. The 7th East Press is one of the great university newspapers; truly the stars aligned when this group got together. He eventually concluded that the document was not an actual historical account and compiled a book of essays suggesting the same, entitling it New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology, published in the 90s. He said that a response finally came not from Hofmann but from one of the Lafferty brothers who was apparently Hofmanns cell mate or on the same block or something like that. My examples are numerous and heart breaking. Its done. On my mission in England I met a older, wise non LDS woman very knowledgeable on esoteric and metaphysics teachings. He was enthusiastic about scholars allegedly validating his translations through secular methods (e.g., Charles Anthon on the BoMor characters and Michael Chandlers anonymous scholars on the BoAbr papyri). I was pronouncing words instead of just reading them. Hi Brent, Thank you for your insights and open heart. It would have helped me a lot to know I was not alone. by | Jun 23, 2022 | replace flower bed with gravel | pickleball courts on staten island | Jun 23, 2022 | replace flower bed with gravel | pickleball courts on staten island In these two episodes we discuss: The aftermath of the Mark Hofmann bombings, and Brent's excommunication for his research into the Book of Mormon, and. fireside chat september 3, 1939 summary . I love the podcasts. Thomas, I can assure you Im living on the same planet you are. All of these documents are available on the Joseph Smith Papers Project website. Do you have any idea what his views are now about the church, what he did, etc.? Thanks again Brent! But I have a question for Brent. I was nervous that you belonged to the catalyst crowd and relieved to hear your developed belief, or non belief. I think youre referring to what has collectively come to be known as the Michigan Relics. James E Talmage wrote quite a bit about them, back in the day. I may have a chance to look for it next week, but Im not promising anything. As soon as we can! I very much appreciated the beautiful memories and great stories Brent shared about what a remarkable and kind person Steve was. I discovered New Approaches to the Book of Mormon back in 2002-03. This is what led me here! Download . Awesome. I am so grateful I stumbled across them along with D. Michael Quinns books wow now 20 years ago. pigella miraculous ladybug power. As a Mormon History and Rare Document Researcher, Brent Metcalfe has unparalleled knowledge of the religion and its connections in Utah. What academic publications does Mr. Metcalfe have to his name that qualifies him to be called one of the foremost scholars in understanding the Book of Abraham? Thank you. The view of the Lamb on mount Sion gave me joy unspeakable and full of glory. Broad topics include my excommunication plus BoMor and BoAbr research. I just looked down at the paper and I felt this wave of total anxiety come over me and then all of a sudden it was like my brain stopped working and it felt like I was looking at a different language. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I was a newly returned missionary at BYU when all of this took place. If youre familiar with image editing, straying from objectivity reminds me of having a color cast in a photo. Joseph didnt go like a lamb to the slaughter in burning down personal property he broke the law in a major way. Come to the dark side and tell your story. Many years later in his interview with Dehlin, Brent Metcalfe tells of a conversation that he had with Mark E. Peterson where he plainly admits he was lying in his book. 0% MARRIED All he had to say publicly if there was really no truth in it, was its simply not true and leave it at that. Sincerely, Terry. In Part 1, Brent talks about his early days in the Church and his time working for Church security. And you are an example. What are your views on the work of Hugh Nibley? The full title is: The life, conversion, preaching, travels, and sufferings of Elias Smith. She was very impressed with the level of esoteric teachings in the D&C and Pearl of Great price. Doxey denied asking about Metcalfe. Reply. We should also mention that he has since been a key speaker at a conference hosted by Ex-Mormon Foundation and has given several interviews where he has detailed his lifes ups and downs. What did they accomplish by kicking any of you out? Copyright 2005 - 2023 | Mormon Stories. Some people who study and read deeply can be more expert than others with advanced degrees. What are your views about these books and how some contemporary Mormon scholars approach them as catalytic for revelation, though they may not specifically be historical? LDS was newly brought to her by a missionary before me. this was fascinating, and I havent got to part 2 yet! It seems like in the aftermath of the bombings, combined with his zeal to argue the history of Mormonism, Brent Metcalfe was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I heard he had left the church soon after returning home. Yes, please delineate with a rough timeline, recent vs. re-exposed critiques of the books. What has been the ramifications to your excommunication among other family members? He also discusses the events leading up to, and including, his excommunication. Truth or legend? The problems he discovered lay at Josephs feet, but he threw out the baby with the bath water as if the success of Christianity rode on the success of Joseph Smith. Growing up I only had positive interactions with his beautiful wife and kids. One question though, has Hoffman done any interviews since being in prison? Do you still attend LDS church? Please share your feeling about this observation as well, and how this may affect future missionary work, growth of the church and most importantly the individual peace of mind of its members. Tom, have you considered allowing John to interview you? John in wonderfully rare form in this oneI love it! Thank you Brent and John. Or even presenting the center view? document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. When you described Hoffmans futile attempts to delay the inevitable meeting where his house of cards would come tumbling down I couldnt help but compare it to the decades-long quest among some of the church leadership to keep the brand pure by weeding out doubters. Categories . Ive always wondered why the most ardently orthodox and pious seem to have the least faith in the divinity and omnipotence of the Lords plan. Are there still more episodes of this series on the way?? I had no idea what your beliefs were and it piqued my interest in part 1 where you talked about scripture being inspirational yet often times not historical. After years of palling around with anti-Mormon apostates (e.g. Did you ever suspect there was something not quite right with Mark Hoffman? I just shook my head to hear the tale of the magisterium giving you the boot, Brent. Should have added one more minor thing. I could read fine in private but the social damage was done and anxiety overwhelmed me every time. In the past, we often got snippets of information in The Church News, Did any of these projects or research ever prove anything? And a small footnote: Many of these original founders had been part of an on-campus group, called the Open Door Club. I have been thinking nonstop about that analogy, because it is so illustrative of the disorder. End of my short story. I heard this in contrast to the snippet of Steve Christensens wife on a news show asking about what Steve Christensen was threatening Mark Hofmann with if he didnt produce the McClellin collection where she stated something along the lines of He was going to go to the police and have him arrested. He had not let on that the 7th East Press was his brainchild. Now, in the wake of 200 years of such scholarship, the Bible doesnt hold up much better than the Book of Mormon. A special thanks to Brent for giving up so much of his time to do these episodes, especially some of them as he was feeling very much under the weather. As a teenager and still TBM I read some books on the Hoffman Salamander Letter and events surrounding it. 2 Introduction at court. We were not suppose to discuss the Temple, Blacks and Priesthood, and of course definitely not curtain parts of the church history such as polygamy and polyandry. This book was way above my reading level at the time and I wonder if that may be the biggest hurdle in reaching standard Mormons about the book and its challenges. But are there any podcasts that go deeper in to Gnostics, esoteric teachings, metaphysics, etc. Yet a solid and detailed examination oflhe pre suppositions, methods, arguments, and conclusions of the vari ous readings of the Book of Mormon would still be very use So sorry Maxine! How was Christensen reimbursed or rewarded by the Church for his document ventures? [3] Current historians tend to agree that Scotford and Soper joined forces to sell the fake relics for personal profit. Theres the answer. If you were to interview Mark Hofmann, what would your top questions be? This was an awesome interview. Sorry for my language, Im not a native English speaker and there is a limit to what I can express in English. Coming! The second half was fascinating thank you, thank you, thank you for this podcast! It would yield some satisfaction to me, if my misery can be a cause of happiness to others; but when I came to the place of prayer, had kneeled down, and closed my eyes, with my hands uplifted toward the heavens, I saw Jesus Christ at the right hand of God looking down upon me, and God the Father looking upon him. Im not sure why I would have been hesitant to answer the question during the interview since Ive addressed it numerous timesIll have to go back and listen. Reminds me of the Mormon interpretation of Amos 3:7 (Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets). But once Mormonism got involved, it turned everything upside down. It is not possible for me to tell how long I remained in that situation, as everything earthly was gone from me for some time. I thought your essay in New Approaches was excellent, and certainly complicates traditional understandings of the Book of Mormon; you obviously dont believe the BoM is historical in any way, but Id also guess you would acknowledge the impressive complexity of it. Im not excited anymore. Do you think he will ever come completely clean? location 502, 899, 5027 of 9578, Last edited on 26 December 2022, at 05:30, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "The LDS intellectual community and church leadership: A contemporary chronology", BOOK OF MORMON SCHOLARS UNLEASH SALVO OF BARBS, "MAPPING BOOK OF MORMON HISTORICITY DEBATESPART I", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brent_Lee_Metcalfe&oldid=1129585083, This page was last edited on 26 December 2022, at 05:30.